Transcript of the Annual Public Meeting - May 31, 2021.

Update from the Board of Directors and CEO

Penny HARTIN:

Good afternoon, everyone and welcome to Accessibility Standards Canada first Annual Public Meeting. My name is Penny HARTIN and I'm a member of Accessibility Standards Canada’s Board of Directors. I also serve as chair of the board's External Relations Committee. I would like to acknowledge that we are all taking part in this meeting from the traditional territories of many indigenous peoples. I myself am on the traditional territories of many nations, including the Mississauga’s of the Credit, the Anishinabek, the Chippewa, the Haudenosaunee and the Wendat peoples. I am delighted to be here today and welcome you to our first annual public meeting. As you may already know, we had planned to hold our first annual public meeting last year. Unfortunately, the pandemic decided otherwise. We are very excited to finally be able to host this event and I hope you are too. This afternoon, you will meet the Board of Directors of Accessibility Standards Canada and some experts in the field of accessibility. We look forward to answering your questions and hearing your suggestions for making Canada a more accessible country. Thank you so much for your presence. Before we start I want to go over a few housekeeping items. All of the information that I'm about to give you is in the instructions that you have already received by e-mail. Could I have the first slide, please? To see interpretation in American Sign Language, or in "langue des signes québécoise", click on the sign language button that looks like two hands.

Next slide. If you have technical issues, click on the help button that looks like a question mark or e-mail helpdesk@cdnhost.ca. Describe the problem and a technician will help you.

Next slide. If you have a slow internet connection, you can try to turn the video off. Click on the settings button that looks like a cog and choose the audio only format. You can also call into the meeting on your phone. The numbers were included in the instructions that you already received by e-mail. We had invited Elder Roseann MARTIN today to launch the Annual Public Meeting with an opening prayer. Unfortunately, she could not join us at this time. Elder Roseann MARTIN was called on by her community to hold a ceremony to honour the 215 children who were recently found buried in British Columbia. She gracefully accepted to prerecord her opening remarks. I would like to say that along with all Canadians, we mourn Kamloops Residential School victims. Elder Roseann MARTIN is a residential school survivor and a Mi’gmaq Grandmother who has travelled all over Canada. She is a pipe carrier, drum keeper, water protector and likes to share her teachings. During her journey, she faced many traumas and anger and overcame multiple addictions. Today, she has over 28 years of sobriety and healing to share with future generations. Please welcome Elder Roseann MARTIN.

Roseann MARTIN:

My name is Roseann MARTIN. I'm from the Listuguj Mi’gmaq First Nation and I'm also a residential school survivor. So today I would like to share this prayer with you before your meeting starts.

[Speaking Mi’gmaq]

I want to translate the prayer I just said in English so that some of you may understand how we try to connect with nature and the prayer that I do is a seven directional prayer to all of our ancestors, not just our native people. It is for all races of man. The very first thing I thank the creator for the gift of life and allowing another day. I also ask for forgiveness for any wrongs that I have done. That way I can continue. I pray for the sky world. I pray for the grandfather's son. I pray for the star nations. I pray for our creator and our water under the Earth. I also pray for the eagle spirit to come from the South. It sits in that direction represented by an eagle. Moreover, for the children. I also pray to the grandmothers from the south so that they can continue helping our nation stay strong and together. In addition, I pray for our women. I also asked the black bear of the west to come in with the healing powers for the medicines for the men and for everyone suffering at this time, who is going through all of the terrible because of COVID-19 and everything else that, is going on right now, I asked for healing. I also asked the grandfathers of the north to bless everybody that is old, for our grandparents, our elders, our seniors, our lodge keepers, our sun dancers, our people who carry on our languages and culture. Our knowledge keepers. I also pray for mother the earth to continue to provide for us so we can sustain ourselves and for the next seven generations. That is my prayer for you today. In addition, I want to close with this because of the tragedy that has been that is going on right now across Canada; I want to send those strong prayers to everybody. Thank you for allowing me for doing this for you. All my relations.

[Speaking Mi’gmaq]

Penny HARTIN:

Thank you very much, Elder Roseann MARTIN, for your prayer that is so important on this day to help us move forward with our event. Apnemultes. Before going to our first presentation, Minister of Inclusion of Disabled People would like to have some words to you. She could not be with us directly today but she has recorded a small video for us. This is the video.

♪[MUSIC]♪♪

Carla QUALTROUGH:

Hello. I would like to acknowledge I am speaking to you from the traditional territory of the Tsawwassen and Musqueam First Nations. Thank you to the Board of Directors for inviting me to address the first Annual Public Meeting for Accessibility Standards Canada. I could not think of a better time for this inaugural meeting than during National Accessibility Week. This year the theme is “Disability Inclusion 2021 – Leaving No One Behind.” This week is about celebrating the important contributions of people with disabilities and the work done to create a more disability-inclusive Canada. We also acknowledge the discrimination and barriers that Canadians with disabilities continue to face and recommit to an accessible and inclusive Canada. This week, we recognize the important work that you do at Accessibility Standards Canada and the fundamental role you play in achieving a Canada that is free of barriers and systemic discrimination. As many of you know, the Accessible Canada Act created this organization by requiring that majority of the board members of Accessibility Standards Canada is people with disabilities. The principle of “Nothing Without Us” became part of the legislation. When the legislation passed in 2019, it was a historic moment and the most significant advance in disability rights since the charter of rights and freedoms over 30 years ago. I’m happy to report that implementation of the Act continues to move ahead and the first set of proposed regulations under the Act is in the process of being finalized. The regulations will ensure that federally regulated entities develop accessibility plans and report on how they will work to remove barriers to accessibility for people with disabilities. All of this work is key to the realization of a disability-inclusive and accessible Canada. The COVID-19 pandemic has hit us hard. As we look ahead to recovery, our government is committed to a disability-inclusive response that leaves no one behind. We established the COVID-19 Disability Advisory Group when the pandemic first hit to ensure that the lived experiences of people with disabilities were reflected in our pandemic response. Today, they continue to advise our work and our plans for a strong recovery. Accessibility Standards Canada will also have an important role to play in an inclusive recovery, through the development of standards that are informed by research and lived experience. These standards will lay the foundation for communities, workplaces and communications that are disability-inclusive. We're making important investments to back up our recovery efforts. Budget 2021 included targeted investments like the $100 million under the Enabling Accessibility Fund to remove barriers in the built environment, and broad-base investments like the commitment to a child-care system that is designed inclusively from the start. We are also developing Canada's first ever action plan for the inclusion of people with disabilities. It will include a new disability benefit and employment strategy and a better process for government to determine eligibility for disability programs and benefits. The Disability Action Plan with an emphasis on the word action will be built on the steps we have taken to date, including the Canada Accessibility Act and the creation of the Accessibility Standards Canada institutions. Canadians will be part of this plan because only by working together we can create a truly accessibly inclusive Canada. We know there is more to do and we need to keep the momentum going. Thank you. Have a great meeting and happy National Accessibility Week.

♪[MUSIC]♪♪

Penny HARTIN:

Thank you for this inspiration, madam minister. I would now like to introduce my colleague, from the Board of Directors of Accessibility Standards Canada. They will present our organization. Talk to you about the work that we do, that we have done to this point in time and what is left to do. Please, Paul-Claude BÉRUBÉ is the president of the Board of Directors. Welcome.

Paul-Claude BÉRUBÉ:

Thank you, Penny. Hello to all. I'm the chairperson of the Board of Directors of Accessibility Standards Canada. I'm happy to be here today to speak to you about the organization. First of all, I would first like to thank Penny and the committee of external relations for the excellent work they have done in preparing this event. As well, thanks to our communications team for the support in the preparation of this event.

So next slide, if you please. Accessibility Standards Canada is a young organization created in 2019 based on Canadian law based on accessibility. The principle “Nothing Without Us” is at the core of our mandate. This means the participation of people who are living with [a disability (ies)] and their organizations is a priority for us. We contribute to build an accessible Canada by financing research projects and setting norms having to do with accessibility. Next slide. Philip RIZCALLAH oversees the day-to-day operations of the organization. You will have the opportunity to hear from Philip a bit later in the presentation. Accessibility Standards Canada also has a Board of Directors. The Board of Directors is responsible for setting the strategic direction for the organization, supervising and managing the organization's activities, and finally advising the Chief Executive Officer on matters touching the organization.

Next. The board of directors has ten members. On the slide you can see a picture of the ten board members with Minister Carla QUALTROUGH, our CEO, Philip RIZCALLAH and, of course, CHICKORY, a friend of our group, Penny HARTIN's guide dog. I would like to introduce you to each board member. Mary Reid is our Vice Chairperson. The other members of the board are William Adair, Kory Earle, Maureen HAAN, Penny HARTIN, Rabia KHERD, Brad McCANNELL, Dr. Joe McLaughlin, and finally Laurie RINGAERT.

Next, please. Our mandate has got three aspects. First of all, we are tasked with looking at accessibility norms and building new ones. They will apply to organizations falling under federal jurisdiction. So they will apply to the Government of Canada and all of its entities such as banks, broadcasting and telecommunication. The application of our norms is voluntary but we would recommend to the Minister of Disability Inclusion adopt these norms as a regulation. The application of the regulations is not voluntary. It must be applied according to the law. The second aspect of our mandate has to do with research with our contribution program and we support project work to eliminate and prevent obstacles and identify them. Finally, we communicate best standards having to do with accessibility to eliminate obstacles. These have to do with information and products that can facilitate the application of norms. We will set standards in priority. Seven sectors which are priority. They have been defined in the Canadian law on accessibility. First, we have the built environment. On this slide, there is a picture of tactile walking surface indicators inside a building. There is also a picture of a ramp outside. These images may be the first things that come to mind for many people when we talk about the built environment. But the built environment also includes things like accessible signage and scent-free environments.

Next. The second priority is the buying of goods, services and facilities. In government, we call this procurement. To represent procurement, we chose an image of a keyboard with a blue button that says accessibility. Under this priority, we could create standards on how to the federal government can include [accessibility when choosing where and what to buy.

Next. The third priority sector is employment. So here is a photograph of two employees in a hardware store. They are both using wheelchairs. Employment is a very broad environment. The idea is to remove obstacles where people work and to support people that have [disabilities]. Employment has to do with hiring, maintaining people in their position, and promotion. But as well, adaptation that is there in place where people work and professional improvement as well. Communication is the fourth priority sector. But it does not include information technology and information. On this, we can see two hands that sign for American Sign Language. This communication is a double meaning communication. It exists when people give and receive information, whether it be in person, by telephone, reading, or writing. But also, on websites and social media. The standards having to do with communication will allow us to make sure that everyone has an equal access to communication and to information.

Next, please. The fifth priority is the design and delivery of programs and services. On this slide, you can see a drawing or an illustration of a lightbulb. In the lightbulb, there are people in the service delivery facility, including a person with their guide dog. They are sitting in front of another person at a desk. This priority includes redesigning programs and services to remove systemic barriers. It also includes giving appropriate training to staff.

Next, please. The sixth priority is transportation. On this slide, we chose an image with icons that represent different ways to travel. Plane, a bus, a train, a taxi, a subway, a light rail and a boat. This priority is for the Federal Transportation Network. This network includes transportation between provinces or territories and travel by plane and train. The Canadian Transportation Agency is the main organization responsible for developing standards under this priority.

Next, please.

The seventh and last priority has to do with the technology for information and communication.

On this slide you can see four people who are using their smart phones to form a circle. This priority has to do with the technology used to exchange information. For example, television, the computer, telephone, the screen reader, video relay systems and many others. The CRTC - will deal with setting up standards in collaboration with Accessibility Standards Canada. Maureen HAAN.

Maureen HAAN:

Thank you very much, Paul Claude. My name is Maureen HAAN and I am a member of Accessibility Standards Canada's Board of Directors. I'm also the chair of the board's Standing Committee on strategic planning. I'm going to tell you about the work our organization has done so far. Part of my presentation will be in American Sign Language and I'm going to start that now.

So next slide, please. We fund research through a program called Advancing Accessibility Standards Research. In addition, through this, our research we fund to help inform the development of our standards. We launched our program in the fiscal years 2019-2020. And since then, we have funded 24 research projects touching on six areas. Those areas include; employment, the built environment, accessible communications, information and communication technologies, emergency measures, and accessibility in indigenous communities.

Next slide, please. Here are a few examples of the research projects that we have funded. We are funding a project that aims to identify barriers to accessibility in national parks. Another project touches on accessibility standards in indigenous communities. One organization is doing a study of the evacuation guidelines for people with disabilities in urban centres during emergencies. All of the projects that we fund will help create strong standards.

Next slide, please. Therefore, we create our standards through technical committees. In addition, our technical committees include experts from a variety of areas, including persons with disabilities, non-governmental organizations, government and industry and commerce. So far, we have technical committees that are creating standards on emergency egress or exit, outdoor spaces, plain language, and employment. We are currently setting up a technical committee for a model standard for built environment accessibility. Next slide. We are also working with other groups and organizations like the CSA group. They are also known as Canadian Standards Association. Together, we're developing a standard on accessible electronic payment terminals. These terminals are the machines you that use when you pay for a debit or credit card at a store. We are also working with the CSA group to update and revise the standard on accessible design for the built environment. Finally, we work with both the CSA and the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation to develop a standard on accessible housing.

Next. This year, we also wrote guidelines on emergencies including COVID-19. We wrote four sets of guidelines on; return to work and work from home, accessible communications, accessible service delivery, and inclusive emergency responses. We wrote these guidelines in consultations with many stakeholders. The guidelines on return to work, work from home and accessible communications are available for everyone on our website at accessible.canada.ca. We will publish others in the upcoming weeks.

Next slide. I'm now very excited to pass the floor over to Dr. Joe McLaughlin to take you to the next part of the presentation.

Over to you, Joe.

Joe MCLAUGHLIN:

Thank you, Maureen. My name is Dr. Joe McLaughlin. I'm a member of the Accessibility Standards Canada's Board of Directors. I also sit on the board's Standing Committee on External Relations. This year, we had our first consultation with Canadians. I'm going to tell you more about these consultations in the next slides. To represent our consultations on this slide, we used an image of a group of persons with disabilities. Some have empty speech bubbles above them to show what they are thinking.

Next, please. We had our first public consultations in September of 2020. We used our online survey to gather information from Canadians. We also provided other accessible options to participants, like e-mail, videos in American Sign Language and "langue des signes québécoise," phone interviews, mail. The consultations closed on September 30th with almost 600 responses. I'm going to go over a few key findings with you today. You can read our full consultation report on our website. Address is here on the slide. The report is also available on our website in American Sign Language and “langue des signes Québécoise”.

Next slide, please. In our survey, we asked people how we should continue to engage with Canadians with disabilities. We also asked where we should focus our research and standards for next year. Sixty-five percent of people who took part in our consultations were persons with disabilities.

Next slide, please. This slide is about how to continue to engage with Canadians with disabilities. Our main finding is what it is important to have an accessible and flexible approach when we engage. What can work for one person can be a barrier for someone else? We need to make sure our engagement is accessible by default. This includes giving many options for people to give their input. And if none of the options work for any person, we need to do everything that we can to find a solution that works. We also ask people what kind of activity they preferred for engaging with us. Eighty-one percent of participants said they preferred group discussions.

Next slide, please. We asked people which of the seven priorities under our mandate we should focus our research on. The three priorities that came back the most were; employment, the built environment, the design and delivery of programs and services. Many participants also raised the importance of intersectionality in research. This means that it is important that we fund research projects that include the perspectives of all persons with disabilities. That includes persons with all kinds of disabilities and persons with disabilities who also belong to other groups like; indigenous communities, women, different age groups, and people who live in rural and remote places. Participants also told us that we should fund research projects that involve persons with disabilities every step of the way.

Next, please. We asked people which of the seven priorities under our mandate we should focus our standards on. The two priorities that came back the most were employment and the built environment. Many participants said it was difficult to choose one priority because all of our seven priority areas are interconnected. For example, a person's access to employment may have an impact on their access to information and communication technology. Or barriers in the built environment can have an impact on the person's access to programs and services. Just as for research, participants also raised that we should make sure to involve persons with disabilities when we create standards.

Next slide, please. Just as Paul-Claude had mentioned, all of these findings give us very valuable information for how we define our priorities for research and standards. As Paul Claude mentioned earlier, “Nothing Without Us” is at the heart of everything that we do. We always want to hear from Canadians and in particular Canadians with disabilities. We will continue to work with you towards an accessible Canada.

Next slide, please. Now I will turn it over to Philip RIZCALLAH, CEO of Accessibility Standards Canada, to conclude the presentation. Over to you, Philip.

Philip RIZCALLAH:

Thank you, Dr. McLaughlin. My name is Philip RIZCALLAH, as Dr. McLaughlin mentioned, I'm the Chief Executive Officer for Accessibility Standards Canada. I'm going to conclude this presentation by telling you a little bit about what we have planned for 2021, 2022.

Next slide, please. Our consultations helped us define the research priorities for our Grants and Contributions Funding Program. This year, the six research priorities that were identified were; accessibility in indigenous communities, the built environment with specific focus on heritage buildings, communication other than plain language, the design and delivery of programs and services, information and communication technology and procurement - or the buying of goods and services and facilities. The call for proposals launched in February 2021. It was launched in February 2021 and it closed March 25, 2021. It is a very impressive proposal. We received 51 research proposals. A very impressive call. We are grateful to everyone who submitted their proposals. As our staff and team review the proposals, we hope to get back to those who applied in the next few weeks.

Next slide, please. In 2021 to 2022 the technical committees that are already in place will continue their work on the basis of networking and consultation, we decided to put in place four new committees to come up with standards. This is acoustics, way finding including signage, emergency measures, especially during a pandemic, and procurement, the buying of goods and services and facilities. We will launch a recruitment process in the coming months.

Next slide, please. This year we're hoping to reach a very important milestone for our organization - accreditation as a standard development organization. We are currently seeking this accreditation through Standards Council of Canada. This will ensure that our standards are recognized as a national standard of Canada. We will also focus on several partnerships. We will work with provinces and territories so they implement our standards. This will remove barriers and ensure that person’s experience of accessibility is more consistent across Canada. We will also continue to build partnerships with other organizations to create standards. We will keep working with the CSA group, as Maureen mentioned earlier, on accessibility electronic payment terminals, accessible design for the built environment and accessible housing. We will continue to work with the Canadian Mortgage and Housing Corporation on the standard for accessible housing. We will continue to work with the National Research Council to support the advancement of the National Building Code in the areas of accessibility. We will advance research together in areas relate today accessibility and built environment. We will also support them to include accessibility in building codes and provincial codes.

Next Slide. As you can see, we have a lot of work ahead of us. We have achieved a great deal of progress in the past year in spite of the number of challenges that the pandemic presented. My colleagues and myself, we are pleased to collaborate with you in making Canada more accessible.

Next Slide. Now I'll hand the microphone over to Penny.

Penny HARTIN:

Thank you, Paul Claude, Maureen, Joe and Philip, and thank you to all of you for your attention.

The slide that you see shows a picture with the gesture to say thank you, which works in the same way in American Sign Language and Quebec sign language.

Next slide, please. Okay. So now is the time to hear from you, the audience. This is your chance to ask questions to the Board of Directors. So there are a few ways to do this. Many of you have already sent in questions to us when you registered for this event. You can also send your questions by clicking on the participate button that looks like a person raising their hand.

Or you can also send your questions into us directly by e-mail at asc-nac@canada.gc.ca. As always, we are looking for respectful dialogue. If we do not have time to answer all of your questions today, as we have already received quite a few, we will follow up shortly after this meeting. All right then, so let's get started. So, for our first question, we have received a number of questions about how board members are chosen. Jody asked, how are board members chosen? And is anyone representing Quebec? And I see some people have also indicated interest in joining the board. Mary, as vice chair with the board, could you respond to this, please.

Mary REID:

I'm sorry about that. I forgot to unmute myself. It is a good question. Thank you for asking it.

I'm glad that people are interested in joining the board. All members of Accessibility Standards Canada’s Board of Directors are governor and council appointees. That means appointments are made by the Governor General who acts on the advice of the Federal Cabinet. We went through an open and transparent process. And that was led by the Privy Council office. The Privy Council office is an office in government that is set up to support the Prime Minister and cabinet. For any position, we had to show that we met a number of criteria. And some of those criteria were things like experience serving on boards of directors and a good knowledge of accessibility issues, accessibility barriers, and experience that people have who have disabilities. You can find more information on the Governor and council appointment process on the Privy Council website. So just go to the website for the Privy Council office and click on government appointments. The previous notice for positions on the Board of Directors of Accessibility Standards Canada can also be found on this website and it is under the category that is called “archived opportunities.” So Paul-Claude, perhaps you would like to answer the question about Quebec.

Paul-Claude BÉRUBÉ:

Yes. Yeah. That's okay. Yes, I'm pleased to do so. Thank you very much, Mary. In terms of the board being nominated and being appointed by the GIEC for our mandate of a maximum of four years, five of them for two years and five others for four years. The diversity is an important factor in the process in this nomination of directors. Also, the regional diversity and the diversity when it comes to disabilities. For example, I come from Quebec, but I have colleagues who come from everywhere in Canada. Appointed as Canadians and nobody at the board represented any provinces. We represent all together Canada.

Penny HARTIN:

Okay. Thank you, Paul Claude and thank you, Mary. Will there be hosted events and outreach plan within each province? They have provided some context for this question. They note that there are a lot of networks and groups at the provincial, municipal, and regional levels. Across Canada there are groups that are French or English only and others that are bilingual. So how will they be represented? Thank you for this fantastic question. Mary, could I ask you to respond, please.

Mary REID:

Sure, Penny. It is a great question. As a board and as an organization, we’re interested in meeting with organizations and groups from across the country. In fact, The Accessible Canada Act is clear about this. The work in developing standards must engage persons with disabilities. It must engage persons with disabilities. So if any organization would like to meet with us, you're welcome to let us know. Accessibility Standards Canada wants to hear from Canadians, including French Canadians, newcomers and indigenous people. As it was said in the question, there are thousands of organizations and groups at local, municipal and provincial, and territorial levels. We need to hear from you. As well we need to hear from individuals who may not be connected to a group or a network. We're committed to engaging with people in English and French, in "langue des signes Québécoise” in American Sign Language, and with people who use argumentative and alternative communication methods. We want to engage in a way that works best for you. Diversity is really important in our work. For example, it is something that is considered when people are selected to become members of technical committees. Having technical committee members from diverse backgrounds can help ensure that our work and the work of developing standards are culturally and regionally sensitive.

Penny HARTIN:

Thank you, Mary. There are also many questions about our mandate. We have also received questions about how we relate to provinces and territories. What is the federal government doing to enforce Bill C-81 provincially and when might this begin to take effect? Heather asks, what steps are being taken to ensure that emergency shelter locations, transportations, and other areas are accessible to those of us with environmental sensitivities? And Linda has asked about accessibility standards for housing in the province of New Brunswick. Paul Claude, can you describe our mandate and our relation with provinces and territories, please?

Paul-Claude BÉRUBÉ:

Yes, thank you. Of course, I will do it gladly. It is a very important question because people who know the Act for accessibility know that this Act is applicable in the federal organizations. But in the daily life, it is also important for provinces and territories. And we all want to know how the standards that we're going to prepare can be applied. If we go back to the Act about accessibility, it is a federal law that is applicable in the federal institutions. The Act is to create standards about accessibility in the federal government. And this includes all of the government institutions but also the communications, the broadcasting, and the Federal Transportation Network. CRTC and the Transportation Canada are specialized in their field. But several provinces are about to adopt laws related to accessibility, related to their competencies. The different governments include the institutions such as hospitals, housing, and trade. As we want to make sure that accessibility is available for all in Canada. We don't want to have standards in the federal government just for the federal institutions but then all provinces have to create their own norms under their own jurisdiction. That's why we have Philip RIZCALLAH and his team and different board members are working in order to connect with the provincial and territorial governments to make sure that the different jurisdictions accept to participate in this new standard and use them. So, Accessibility Canada is collaborating right now with provinces and territories in the development of these standards. We do not want to wait 20 years to know how it will apply the norms. We want right now to do it with the provinces, territories and municipalities to make sure that we work all together for the development of these standards. This way, the municipalities will be able to adapt, adjust, and use these standards. We do not force nonetheless any jurisdiction to do anything. We have to learn the specificities of the provinces and territories. We want to use the norms according to our knowledge. Our technical committees will take into account the exemplary practices. We will work together with our partners in the provinces and territories to create a more accessible Canada.

Penny HARTIN:

Michelle asks, what is the process to have accessibility standards for environmental sensitivities or multiple chemical sensitivities? Mary, would you like to answer this, please?

Mary REID:

Thank you, Penny. Simply put, all standards, all standards developed by Accessibility Standards Canada will address barriers for all persons with disabilities. So this includes people with environmental sensitivities and people with multiple chemical sensitivities. People with environmental and multiple chemical sensitivities can help shape our standards in many ways. You can apply to be members on the technical committees and also there is an opportunity to give feedback and input on draft standards when they go out for an open public consultation process from all Canadians. So we will post the draft standards online for public consultation as they're developed. A notice about this will be shared on our social media platforms, put in our newsletter, and sent out to everybody on our stakeholder list. So you know if you haven't already done it, it would be really great to get onto to the stakeholder list and then you will get a notice of when the consultations are ready for review. Thank you, Penny.

Penny HARTIN:

Super! Thanks very much, Mary. We have received questions about norms related to employment. We want to know how the government can help people with multiple sclerosis in their jobs and how they can have the accommodations, they require in their workplace. Can you answer?

Paul-Claude BÉRUBÉ:

I have a problem with my screen. Penny can you go and I will return to this question in one minute? Sorry for this. I have a problem with my screen.

Penny HARTIN:

I sure can. I'll come back to Paul-Claude. I will go back to you, Paul-Claude, in a couple of minutes. Question, Roxanne asks, what methods if any is Accessibility Standards Canada exploring or actively pursuing in regard to outreach to Canadian universities and colleges to engage with Canadian youth? This is a really fantastic question. Thank you for that. Joe, perhaps you would like to respond.

Joe MCLAUGHLIN:

I just want to reiterate what Penny said. Thank you so much. Engagement with young Canadians is very important. We benefit from getting points of view from different and diverse audiences. Indeed, we need to consider youth when developing our standards. When we are consulting the public on our standards, it will be important for youth to participate in the process so their voices are heard. Accessibility Standards Canada is developing a strategy to engage youth and in particular youth with disabilities. This will include a youth event this fall. We will have more information to share in the coming months. So make sure that you watch our social media platforms. We are also committed to working with organizations to promote and implement our standards.

Penny HARTIN:

Thank you very much, Joe. Paul-Claude, are you ready to answer to the question from Lees?

Paul-Claude BÉRUBÉ:

Can you repeat the question, please?

Penny HARTIN:

We have received questions about standards related to the employment. Liz is asking, how the government can help people with multiple sclerosis to keep their job and get the accommodations they require?

Paul-Claude BÉRUBÉ:

Thank you very much. I'm very sorry for the technical problem that I had. This question is very important. We have created a technical committee that has to answer about these questions relating to the employment. This committee includes experts and people with disabilities who can contribute to the committee from their own experiences. These employment standards will include the full cycle of employment. Getting a job, maintaining a job, and also the different measures required for accommodation measures for employment. Also, access to facilities to improve their path and career. The standards will also include the employment but from the point of view of diversity of people with disabilities. All Canadians who have the possibility to give their opinion about this norm, what I want to say is that after we create this project, we will have a public consultation obviously that will wait for all Canadians - will allow all Canadians to contribute to this norm. We want this norm to be ready for public consultation at the end of 2022, beginning of 2023.

Penny HARTIN:

Thank you very much, Paul Claude. I needed to make sure that I was off mute. We had a question from the audience. Maureen, we haven't kept you very busy. I'm wondering if you could respond to this one from Diane. Can anyone sign up for a technical committee?

Maureen HAAN:

Sorry, it cut off. So sorry. Can anyone sign up for a technical committee? Yes, people can sign up for a technical committee. There are priorities that have been established for the type of -- the type of - not characteristics, but the type of expertise to bring into the technical committee. But anybody is welcome to apply, as soon as the technical committee postings are out. So thank you for that one, Penny. Sorry. I didn't hear my name being called.

Penny HARTIN:

Sorry about that. I thought I would give a little pre-warning, particularly with some of the questions that have just come in from the audience, which is fantastic. Philip, just for some pre-warning, we have received another question from the audience that I will ask you to respond to, if you don't mind. If you could explain more about the relationship with the National Research Council and how exactly, we will work to turn accessibility standards into provincial law.

Philip RIZCALLAH:

Thank you very much for that question. So the relationship with the national research council is very strong. For those that are unaware of what the National Research Council has to do with standards, the National Research Council is responsible for the National Building Codes for the country. These are codes in construction, fire, energy, plumbing. These codes are developed as model codes and then they are used by provincial governments and adopted by provincial governments either in their entirety or in their majority by provincial governments, as they become law. The National Building Code has a small section that deals with accessibility but works on the premise of minimum acceptable level. So the difference between what the National Building Code is doing and what Accessibility Standards are doing, we are looking at accessibility from the perspective of the equity for all. So we're building - we're designing these codes as a best in class set of requirements that can be used. And we're working closely with the National Research Council. Our hope is that we would develop these standards. We would then make recommendations to the National Research Council, to their commission on building the fire codes to adopt and consider these standards for inclusion in the National Building Codes. Therefore setting the bar much higher. In addition to that, what we’re doing is working with provincial and territorial governments across the country to see what their needs are, trying to work with them, so that when we do develop these standards in the area built environment, or any standard for that matter, they're more apt to actually adopt our standards. If we take into account the concerns they have regionally, we can consider that or give that to our committee so they can consider that so that when our standard comes out, not only will it hopefully be adopted in the National Building Codes, the federal government will adopt it but at the same time, the provincial governments will consider adopting those standards as well. That's when you will have the true impact across the country. Thanks.

Penny HARTIN:

That's great, Philip. Thank you so much. All right. So thank you so much for the questions that were submitted online while we were talking. Unfortunately, we have run out of time to answer any more questions. We want to thank everybody for the questions that you have sent to us. You know, many of them were excellent. And so if we haven't responded to your questions, to the board today, we will follow up with you within the next few weeks. Now we will take a ten-minute break. Please remain connected while you're stretching or having a bite to eat or a little bit to drink. We are coming back in ten minutes.

Accessible Service Delivery with Speaker Maayan ZIV

Brad McCANNELL:

Hi, everybody. Welcome back from the break. Hi, everybody. Welcome back from the break. I apologize for technical issues. Maybe some crosstalk, you heard, background noise. We apologize for that. It is our first time. Give us a break. I'm Brad McCANNELL I'm a member of the Accessibility Standards Canada Board of Directors and the chair of the Performance Appraisal Committee. In just a moment, we will get started on the first discussion on accessible service delivery. I feel like I'm preaching to the choir here. As we all know, many people in our community face barriers when trying to access the very programs and services from the federal government that are designed for us. Our first speaker knows more about this than most people. Maayan ZIV is the founder and CEO of AccessNow, a grass roots socialist startup that maps accessibility standards of all kinds of environments at a consumer level. Maayan is a passionate, relentless advocate for creating a more accessible world. Welcome Maayan ZIV.

Maayan ZIV:

Thanks, Brad. [TECHNICAL & TRANSLATION ISSUES] I am wearing a white shirt and I have brown hair. When I was asked to speak today, I thought a lot about kind of what could I add that might be different than what we usually talk about in thinking about accessible service delivery, I'm seeing there is a note on no translator. So - and now it is fixed. Okay. So great. I will continue. If anything comes up, I can relay those messages, no problem. I was thinking about what how I could contribute that might be different than what we usually talk about. And in these conversations for the most part the wide majority of us are working in the space of accessibility, thinking about accessibility a lot. And I grew up with my disability. I have used a wheelchair throughout my life and I think a lot lately about what it means to be in the driver's seat of creating an accessible experience, designing accessible services. I think a lot about accessibility as an experience. I think we often think about accessibility in the practical hands-on tangible ways in which we deliver a service or design a product or, you know, create legislation or inform standards. But, you know, to me as a person with a disability, accessibility at large is something I experience. And if we think about accessibility as an experience, it also allows us to think about the design of that experience. From end to end. From the conception of, I want someone to feel something. I think about in the work that I do, in a tech company, we talk a lot about design thinking. About how we can empathize with the community that we're solving a problem for. Really get deep into the shoes or the wheels of someone who is experiencing a certain problem. How we can move from that problem into tossing all kinds of solutions at a wall and thinking about how eventually through that process we can come up with a solution. And I think good design is intentional. This is something that we should all agree on. A good designer will think about how someone will feel when interacting or engaging with a solution. How will they use the product if it is a product that I'm building or creating something new or iteration of an older version. How can someone share feedback when something is not working? How do they contact support? Really from end to end of an experience, good design is intentional. And I strongly believe and I'm sure that many will nod when I say that good design is accessible design is inclusive design. That when we are designing systems, services, products, experiences, properly, they are also experiencing that every single person can engage and interact with. That there is no need to come after the fact and, you know, try to get ahold of someone through a special help line and say, by the way, I was not included. By the way, I conditioned access that service. Good design is accessible design. We're really far away from this reality, as we well know and I think about what would it look like if we got it all right. You know, every single step of the way. And I was kind of mining my memories over the weekend, thinking about, you know, where have I seen this happen? From end to end. Where have I seen an entire experience just seamlessly work, intentional good accessible design. And the first thing that actually came to my mind, the most visceral, clear example was actually an experience that I had on a trip to Vancouver, where I stayed in a boutique hotel. I remember making plans ahead of time as I often do, especially travelling with a power wheelchair. There's a lot that goes into it. I called the hotel that I had found that I was going to be staying at. I had my regular checklist of questions. Is there a step at the entrance? Can you recommend transportation to and from? Do you have any specific service at the concierge that may help me navigate the space more accessibly? I asked, if I'm flying in, it was my first time to Vancouver, how can I access the hotel? Do I need to book accessible transportation? I was expecting all kinds of answers. I don't know. Maybe. Let me put you on hold for a minute. Let me go ask management and send you an e-mail. There might be a taxi cab. There's been so many answers that I've heard. But this one was new to me. You don't have to do anything. When you get to the airport, you take public transportation, like everyone else, and it will literally bring you to the front door. It seemed too easy. It seemed like not possible. And I remember saying are you sure, though? And I kept asking, you know, but what happens if this happens? And are you sure there is not a special place where I have to wait, a special hotline that I have to call when I get to the airport kind of exit? There are so many different workarounds. And all of a sudden she was giving me a straightforward answer. And I thought there's no way. But she seemed super confident. So we will give it a shot. And I showed up. Just as she said, you know, there was accessible transportation, along with everyone else. I hopped on. And arrived at my location. So that was the first signal that let me know, I had been included in the design of this service. I had been included in the design of this experience. When I showed up literally across the street and was at my hotel, I again still, you know, dealing with anxiety or coping mechanisms that I often have when I travel thought I might come up against a step at the entrance, some kind of barrier that I’d have to navigate. But there weren't any. I showed up in a wide accessible lobby, with wide accessible doors that automatically opened when I drove my wheelchair in. And there was someone there and she said, oh, you must be Maayan ZIV. We spoke on the phone. Second signal to let me know there was intentional design to think though there might be someone coming through today with a wheelchair and she might need additional assistance. And she walked me through the entire experience of where I can access things, what I had access to, what services I could call for if I needed them. The entire experience was just so accessible that I started asking myself, like could this really be this easy. And over the course of my trip, this one experience of showing up somewhere, being greeted by someone who was trained and understood about the types of things that I might need support with, to you know, the experience within the hotel room. Everything was accessible. Everything was thought about. And that entire experience to me is really this concept of intentional accessible design. It is very simple, and it applies to everything. It is more than ramps and entrances. It applies to employment, customer service, procurement, event planning, communications, IT, product design, transportation, and yes, infrastructure. This concept that from end to end, if we are intentionally inclusive, if we make it a priority to design for every single person's experiences in mind, you know, you think about spaces that have certain music and certain sounds and certain lighting. All of this stuff, you know, down to the chocolate that they leave on the pillow. We will go back to the airport example. It is all designed to give you an emotional response. It is all carefully curated to a specific type of persona. The majority of the time the persona is not someone with a disability. And it will take a lot more work than just the implementation of standards to get to this type of level of excellence. Where we think about every single, tiny signal that might give someone the confidence to feel included. And feel the assurance that their experience is valued. To me that is what an accessible Canada is about. But if there is one thing that we learned throughout this really difficult time is that change is possible. That when push comes to shove, we can do big and hard things. And so I'm very confident that we will reach this day. And that with the work that we're doing here, we can start to signal to all of the others how they can then implement some of the leadership that we're showcasing in Canada and build it into their own work that might not be touched by standards. And those are my official remarks. And I will pass it back to, you Brad, to hear if there are any questions. Thank you so much for listening.

Brad McCANNELL:

More proof that the best perspectives come from people with lived experience. Good design is intentional. Words to live by right there. Good design is intentional. Good design is informed design. And just words to live by. I would like to get questions in if we can. To help us out I want to introduce our moderator, Jacques FALARDEAU.

Jacques FALARDEAU:

Thank you, Brad. Thank you to all. As Brad was saying, I'm Jacques FALARDEAU. I'm one of the managers and employees here at Accessibility Standards Canada. I'm very happy to be here with you this afternoon and to be able to indicate your questions on accessible services. A quick reminder that there are two ways that you can submit your questions. You can click on the participate button on your screen. It looks like a person raising their hand. And you can also send us an e-mail and address it at; asc-nac@canada.gc.ca. Don't forget that it is possible that we might not be able to answer all of your questions this afternoon. We will certainly do our best to. Maayan, we have received a question from Ashley who asked, how can we offer more accessible service by delivery by default and how do we remove barriers to access?

Maayan ZIV:

Great question, Ashley. I think the way for me, the way that I would approach this is similarly that if we want things by default, they have to be designed by default. And that often specifically when we talk about things like accessible service delivery, you know, I think that should just be called service delivery. And it should be accessible by default. And in order to get to that point, the people who design the services need to understand that is part of their responsibility. Often what happens is that there is a silo department focused on accessibility separate from the main event or from the main course of designing a service. I think if we want to get to the default, we need to make sure it is included at every step of the way. It can't be these sporadic bursts of like, we have CART and captioning and ASL say for an event. Moreover, there is this amazing moment. Then somewhere else, it is not giving the same signals of the same levels of excellence. Therefore, I think if we want the default, the people who are responsible for creating those services have to get the proper training and education. In addition, obviously it should be including people with disabilities in part of the actual design of those experiences. Therefore, I think the second question about how we remove the barriers to access is including the voices of people with disabilities. In addition, part of the design process, get proper service delivery. Moreover, think about, you know who is doing it really well and what we can learn from them.

Jacques FALARDEAU:

Thank you, Maayan. Our next question is similar but just as important. Another participant asked if you would share with us what you think about what are the gaps when it comes to accessible services?

Maayan ZIV:

Yeah. Yeah. Definitely similar but equally as important for sure. I think in the work that I have done and in, you know the variety of different companies, organizations, governments that I have had the chance to talk to, there are a few things that kind of stick out to me. The first one is that I think definitely, there is a significant gap in education. For example, you know, if you look at communications, I studied, you know, television. I studied a lot about communication when I went to school. Never did any one talk to us about accessibility. Not until the end in a niche course, did we think about how we write in a way that is inclusive. How do we design services that are inclusive in the work that we were doing? I think if we are training people to create new things, accessibility has to be part of that equation. And without it, you know, just training the next generation of barrier builders accidentally who then have to go out on their own and be illuminated and feel a bit uncomfortable about the fact that they went through an entire education system that just failed them on this point. They have to learn it on their own. Therefore, I think education is one of the first and most important pieces. The second I think is really about leadership. I think if we're going to address some of the gaps and understand where they are, you know, looking at people who have signalled that these are priorities from the beginning, like at every step of the way, I think it is really important, it is very difficult if you go through the process of identifying gaps, sharing what those gaps are, and then, you know, the leaders above you go, oh well, we changed our mind this quarter. That's not a priority. To me, that is a significant gap. Leadership has to buy in. Otherwise even if you are, you know, a champion within your organization, whether that be within federal government or, you know, a small business operating somewhere in Canada, if your leaders are not buying in and believing in the work that you are dedicated to solving problems for, it is really difficult to create those next stages to actually creating the solutions of accessible services. And the last I would say is that we really need to have -- and I stress really -- very wide and diverse representation of all kinds of lived experiences with disability. This is like an obvious, but to me if you are going to identify gaps, you need to have people with very different experiences of disability coming to the table and sharing their own perspectives of what they're seeing. Often the best examples of how we come to solutions are inspired by people with disabilities, as we well know. Those would be the three gaps that I have identified as the lack of visibility, representation from the disability community within service delivery. Often a lack of leadership from people rolling up their sleeves and saying I believe in this. Yes, I will. I will vouch for this. I will fight for this. And a lack of education for those who are getting started.

Jacques FALARDEAU:

Thank you, Maayan. Our next question comes from someone whose name is Meredith. And I believe that in your role with AccessNow, I imagine that you will have gained a lot of insight, for example, into what accessibility means to different people. In addition, that is where Meredith's question takes us. She asks what do we need to do to ensure federal buildings are designed to support the accessibility needs of neurodivergent staff and visitors and as well as those with mental health differences? She cites sensory, concentration or spaces.

Maayan ZIV:

Yeah. Great question. In addition, I'm glad that you asked, Meredith. I think that often and it was actually earlier in the presentation, that when people think about accessibility, they're thinking about ramps and steps. Moreover, that's what accessibility means. And I think, you know, absolutely we need to take into account the various ranges of what people consider accessibility to mean to them, which can be a very personal thing. But that it is very different from person to person. I can share kind of on a personal level what we have done at AccessNow is actually similar kind of evolution. We started by building a tech platform that was focused on solving kind of navigation needs for people who did have ability devices. People who did use wheelchairs or canes or walkers who were challenged by, you know steps at entrances and things like that. So what you would assume. In addition, the way that we evolved in our thinking was actually just by asking our community. Like it seems so straightforward. But the first step is obviously like what do you need? What works for you? What can we do differently that will make you feel more included? And the second part, the harder part, is actually taking that feedback and building it into your solution. So it is really easy to ask people questions, sometimes. But it is a lot harder to take that and actually authentically design a response that includes people who are neurodivergent or people who had mental health difference. Finding a way of asking the question first of all, in a way that people can show up with their best is a really important thing. If it is a survey or a long text document is not the best way, don't do it that way. Finding ways to show up where people tend to be comfortable to do the actual work of providing feedback. And then creating the signals that suggest, yes, we have changed. Yes, we have created, you know, sensory free spaces or spaces with reduced lighting, let's say, or spaces that, you know, might be designed slightly differently. So I think there are so many different ways that we can provide signals that say yes, we are actually listening. Yes, we are making the changes. But it is always going to start and at every step of the way must include people who do have those experiences to ensure that the buildings are designed and supporting. Yeah.

Jacques FALARDEAU:

Thank you, Maayan. My next question is from someone who just sent it in. That would be Kathy. Kathy says, your experience reminds me of the idea of mobility as a service or MAAS. She says do you think we can get to a point of accessibility as a service, including invisible disabilities?

Maayan ZIV:

Great question. That is interesting. And I would love to kind of hear more about what you think about it and kind of what that would mean. The way that I see it, and there was a point in kind of the AccessNow journey where we started thinking, you know, should accessibility be a service? In many ways, yes, I agree. But I think it should be integrated within everything. It should kind of be -- and the best form of kind of accessible design kind of has a double-edged sword, because if it is designed so well, it is invisible. If it is done so well, it includes everyone and no one even notices it is there in the first place. And so that is the tricky thing about really great accessible service delivery is that it is done in a way that people just get what they need. And so it doesn't stick out like a sore thumb. It doesn't stick out as like a special feature. That would be my eventual ideal. And I think to get there, I think it totally makes sense to create kind of these marketing or competitive advantage opportunities for businesses to talk about having invested in accessibility as like a key feature so we can create some of this, in my opinion, FOMO where people say that is really awesome. They have more market share because they have invested in this. They have better customer satisfaction because they have invested in this. And I have seen some companies start to take leaps towards doing this. I think actually Google's recent ad during the Oscars, I don't know if you saw it, they created an ad all about captioning. They could have taken to prime spot to do all kinds of things. But they chose to talk about accessible video conferencing and the actual emotional experience of being included in that experience. So there are companies who are starting to realize, like we can take -- we can take this concept of accessible service delivery and design it as a competitive advantage to market our brand around. And I don't think that that is any different than what we can do within federal government, by the way. But I do think that is like a step towards eventually everybody does it and then it is not a competition of whom has accessible things and who doesn't but who is doing the best job at creating something that is cohesive and totally in some way invisible where things just work really well. Hopefully, I answered that question backwards.

Jacques FALARDEAU:

Thank you Maayan. I'm going to move on to the next question. This one relates to universal design and universal accessibility. One of the participants has asked, is there a way to receive services or support without the need to explain why you have identified a barrier? Particularly for those with invisible disabilities.

Maayan ZIV:

I love that question. I love that question because it is something that I think about a lot. So, again, I'm going to go back to kind of my best example of being what I build and work on every day at AccessNow. There's been a lot of times along the way to design that people suggested, why not let people create profiles that say what type of disability they have and what their preferences are? And I said because it shouldn't matter. Because if we're doing it really well, regardless of what your disability is or your specific need is, you should be able to be supported without the need to always disclose. Depending on where you are or at what point in your life. You might not be comfortable to do that. And I think that is your right. I don't have that privilege. When I show up, people know I'm in a wheelchair. Although lately on Zoom sometimes, I can get away with it if I feel like it. I end up telling people I'm in a wheelchair anyway. I do think if it is done really well, you should be able to say, I need this or I want that. And this is how I do my work best. Without the need to justify yourself because you have a disability and therefore you need an accommodation. I think if it is done really well, if you need something in order to do your work best, it shouldn't be a question as to, well, do you qualify for that? I remember, for example, I'll go back to the airline because obviously travelling is on my mind. Getting closer and closer to eventually being able to do this. Okay. Are you really in a wheelchair or can you walk at all? You know, you don't look disabled. These qualifiers as to whether someone deserves or should need help or accommodations, I think is really outdated thinking. I think if you need something, in order to do your work best, let's say, it should be there. The same way that you can change your screen to dark mode and it helps you see things differently. It is just there. It is built in. If you need it, it is there. And I think accessible service delivery should be no different. If you need it, it's there. No questions asked. All the forms and justifications of whom and why, they actually make it a lot harder for a person who needs help to get the help. Sometimes people just give up. And that is actually one of the biggest challenges, especially in employment. We want to retain and make sure that people with disabilities are within the workforce. We can't constantly create barriers where it is just so difficult to receive help. Thank you for asking that question. Clearly, I'm passionate about it.

Jacques FALARDEAU:

Thank you. The next question is an important one. This time it is from Jamie. I know that you work with a lot of companies, Maayan, and a lot of companies and organizations. So, I imagine that you probably have quite a bit of experience with this type of question. Jamie asks, do you believe that accessibility should be the responsibility of only part of a business or should every team and business line be responsible for ensuring their organization is accessible? And Jamie has also asked if you could share why or why not you think.

Maayan ZIV:

Thanks, Jacques. Jamie set up me for an answer that I was going to say anyway. I don't believe it should be the responsibility of only one part of the business or only one department. It is something that I preach in every meeting that I can. I think we start -- we have to start somewhere. So lately what I'm seeing more and more often are, you know, roles, and I share these on my LinkedIn often. Chief Accessibility Officer. There are these new roles. For example, the other day Netflix announced that they are hiring for a Chief Accessibility Officer. The first time they have created this role. There is this new phase that people are understanding that accessibility requires leadership and expertise. And that should be a given and granted. Yes. Just like you like have a Chief Operations Officer. A Chief Accessibility Officer, I think of someone like Jenny Lay-Flurrie at Microsoft, is someone who can create and inspire a culture of accessibility. Also understanding if you are Chief Operations Officer, you're not the only person within the organization responsible for operations. And that's where I think the gap often is. That we are still often working with organizations that have identified one or two or maybe an ERG who are responsible for accessibility at large. In order to get to a place where there is real change, every single person has to know that part of the way they do their work is to ensure that it is done accessibly. So every team, every business should have the proper education to understand what is accessibility about? What is it within my role that I can do to signal greater accessibility or reduce barriers. If I'm a writer, what language can I use? If I'm a designer, what tools am I using and training my team on? There are so many different ways. I think every single person has a responsibility. Some greater than others. But absolutely. That's my answer to your question, Jamie.

Jacques FALARDEAU:

Thank you, Maayan. I have another one that just came in. This time it is from Nicholas. And Nicholas would like to hear your thoughts about public transit accessibility. He asks two questions. How do you think it needs to be more accessible everywhere? And do you have thoughts on including audio on transit for people who may be blind or have a visual impairment?

Maayan ZIV:

Sure. So I'm not a transportation expert. So I will add that disclaimer. But I think similarly, you know, there is some kind of like pockets where transportation has been done better than others. Obviously announcements on, you know, subway stations, trains, and buses, that is an accessibility default, in my opinion. Like if you don't have that, you're not doing your job. So yes, absolutely, in terms of should they be there. Yes, of course, they should be there. I have actually seen sometimes, not in transportation, but I have seen in tech people have used different opportunities to use audio guides to create branding signals. So the way the tone is or the words that they use adds a level of playfulness. So then we're going beyond like bare minimum, like into like how do we excel, how do we give people moments of delight. I thought I would throw that in there because it made me think of that. Yeah. Absol utely. I think the greatest thing about kind of what is going on here in Canada right now, with Accessibility Standards Canada is the hope and the momentum that we're building around excellence. To me that is really the most exciting signal. It is that we're not talking about doing something at bare minimum where people can just kind of, you know, glance over a clipboard and say, okay. But to create an example that does include, you know, millions of voices in terms of feedback, accommodations, research, that other countries, other provinces can use. And transportation is a big part of that. So I don't have specifics, but the answer is yes.

[Laughter]

Jacques FALARDEAU:

Thank you. We only have a couple minutes left. I want to throw one last question ought. I hope it is not too big for the amount of time. It is related to your area of specialty and your work. I thought I would share it with you. It comes from someone named Ira. And the question has to do with technology. They ask, what is your take on using AI or artificial intelligence driven technologies and the lack of inclusive data or data bias to people with disabilities? They asked if you might have thoughts particular about recruiting or providing public services, if you had any thoughts to share on this.

Maayan ZIV:

Okay. So that is a huge question. I could talk about this for hours. Probably a deeper dive worthy of another event. Luckily, I'm speaking at like seven this week. If you catch me on Twitter, you might catch me talking about AI in another conversation. AI is an interesting one. It is one that we have started doing some research within at AccessNow. So I am kind of specifically looking at the space more and more often. The majority of AI is designed kind of within the norm or like within the middle averaging of a population. And obviously we know, people with disabilities are not usually included in that norm for design. The cool thing about AI is that if it is done inclusively, if it incorporates lived experiences, you can actually design things for people with disabilities are incredibly empowering. So there is this cool kind of balancing act that is happening where you have a lot of companies who are investing in AI that might not be doing it ethically. And then there are these cool, usually niche companies that get that if you design AI to be ethical and inclusive, you get amazing results. Still early days. We don't have like perfect practical implementation of this. But I think it is really important to include people with disabilities in the training and the labelling in every step of the way of creating any type of AI that is supposed to, you know, plug into our world and start making decisions for us. Not for us, with us. That is the disclaimer. The next question, I think there was something about, you know, recruiting employees and providing services. I think we really have to err on the side of caution before we start training and trusting AI to do work that guides our thinking, which happens on this slippery slope before we know it is implemented into a way that we do things without realizing that the suggestions we're being given are not including all voices, not including all experiences. That's where things get tricky. So there's a lot of research that needs to go into actually designing AI that does incorporate people with disabilities into the actual solution. But we're so far from seeing kind of the implementation of that. So yeah. Be cautious if you're someone dealing with AI and know that most of like the plug and play options do not necessarily include people with disabilities in the solution.

Jacques FALARDEAU:

Thank you, Maayan. Thank you, everyone. I'm sorry to have thrown that big question to you.

Maayan ZIV:

It was a big one.

Jacques FALARDEAU:

Thank you for sharing your insight with me and with everyone. We are out of time. So I would now like to introduce the MC for the next portion of our meeting. Everybody, I would like to introduce you to Ms. Rabia KHERD.

Barriers in Emergency Situations with Speaker Paul LUPIEN

Rabia KHERD:

Thank you, Jacques and thank you to our presenter for a very informative discussion. It is my pleasure now to introduce our next speaker. My name is Rabia KHERD. I'm a member of the board of directors of Accessibility Standards Canada. And it is my pleasure to introduce our next speaker. Our next theme is barriers to emergency, sorry barriers in case of emergency. I'm listening to my voiceover reading at the same time and speaking. For those who use assistive technology, you know how challenging that can be no matter how hard you practise. We have lived with the pandemic. Emergencies can certainly create new barriers and can exacerbate existing barriers. Our guest speaker has seen this before. Paul LUPIEN was involved in 1998 with the ice storm in Quebec. Today he is the president of La Confédération des organisms "de personnes handicapée du Quebec." He is also on the Board of Directors of the consortium - I practised my French really hard. The consortium of organizations for social inclusion. Welcome Paul LUPIEN.

Paul LUPIEN:

Hello. Good morning. Hello, everyone. I am Paul LUPIEN. I'm a chef by trade and I have a background in automation. Above all, I have done a lot of volunteer work in my life. Even in organizations for people with disabilities. Until 2017, I was a non-disabled person. Despite my volunteer work, I will tell you today that I knew nothing about disability. Yet at the time I thought I knew what people with disabilities went through. In 2017, I was told that I have a neurodegenerative disease. And in November 2017, that from now, on I had to move in a wheelchair. For me, it was the end of my world. I was now part of the invisible of the society. Thankfully, there were services, programs will support me. They told me my choices will be respected as stated nearly 10 years before the report by Gerard Bouchard and Charles Taylor. The commission about the practices to accommodate people with cultural differences. And on page 143, it is stated that the appropriateness of an adjustment might not be visible for all. But similar exemptions may be granted for health reasons. A girl must cover her head at her doctor's orders or diabetic child must bring the syringe and needle to school. No one would think of objecting to such exceptions. We also know that accommodations to ensure equality for pregnant women or people with physical disabilities are widely accepted. The reality is not what these two philosophers told us. One complaint out of three is for discrimination in Quebec. And it is for disabled people. A reasonable accommodation is in itself a sign of discrimination. I've been learning since 2017 what it is to be in a disability situation. That is doing everything in a world that didn't plan for new advances and often doesn't adapt to you due to the lack of means for you. Today I would like to talk about me when I was in 1998 facing the ice storm. The city was cut off from electricity. Cities and villages were in the same situation. Looking back, I would like to talk to myself and say, do your best despite the protocols. You will have to improvise. You will make mistakes. Do what you can with the knowledge that you have. You will even be an idiot. Especially for the invisible -- invisible ones of our society. So I think of myself in 1998, in the ice storm every time I'm in a situation that I cannot handle. What would Paul, the younger have done to evacuate the 300-pound person - 300-pound electric wheelchair in an apartment building? How to transport him to the gym. Did we think that they might not be able to recharge their wheelchair battery? On location, we had planned anything relate to this evacuation, except for this particular case. What would Paul Le Jeune have done faced to a 47-year-old man who had an intellectual disability, living with his 70-year-old parents? How do you maintain the routines of a home, to get to gym in the midst of strangers? How will he plan to have his medication in his bag with him when the ice storm started? We had a few minutes to evacuate. I would have been without knowledge of what to do then. And yet and more happened in my city in 1998. Nothing in our daily debriefings, not a word in the postmortems. In 1998 I remember the girl that we went to see if her parents were okay. Knocked on the door. The door is open. I feel the air coming into the apartment there. Candles everywhere. They're heating and lighting their face. The husband is there with his respirator, tracheotomy. He has medals in photos. I’ve known war, I'm not leaving home. I have seen worse. I can't spend my day there. There are other requests. I need to move on. Should I be using force? It is allowed under emergency maneuvers. But the gentleman is determined. He is at home. He is not going to move easily. How am I going to deal with the respirator with this situation? Should I leave him there? Well, happen what may. But then I think of asking advice of the military here or there. They do the military salute. They said corporal, we need you. So thanks to them, they followed them. They were able to bring him to the emergency centre where he was able to receive the services that he needed. If the military had not been there, what would we have done? Nothing was expected to be done. So you can think that protocols are firm. So the idiot that I am today knowing full well that we don't know everything. To date I know that I would never know it all. So, word on solidarity. During the crisis, many families found themselves without being able to eat. The city offered meals, as many others did, to people who came to the distribution centre. However, since all other communities didn't have that generosity, we had to start checking to see if people were from the city before serving them. Some had come from far away. They had the means to come. I understand them. I understand our city. And I understand our own city telling them they could not get service. So to rely on solidarity is a necessity. What I saw and what I understand now, I can think that for everyone that is a [person(s) with a disability(ies)], there has to be more than help giving to one another. What we saw in Quebec, we saw with protocols regarding COVID. We realized what would happen if there were no sufficient resources. It would be exclusion. In Quebec, there is no one being vaccinated in the high-risk level. No discrimination, even when science says there should be -- signs say there should be everywhere. And the political system is active. Thinking of missing solutions. Confidentiality and free choice. Why do the various services do not ask people, if there is an emergency, would you allow us to transmit the information on your condition and the fact that you're on the territory, why, Paul, cannot ask that my confidentiality be lifted in such a case? Another thing is the resilient community. Where people are working, people are with other workers. So [person(s) with a disability(ies)] is at least one person that looks that they get to the proper spot. Now, why should it not be the same thing within the community? In many places there are snow angels. That's why the city of Windsor has the snow angel program. It is a voluntary snow removal service for people who [are disabled] and aging. There are people in the community that are linked with others in the community who need help. So volunteers and emergency, why could there not be emergency angels? So the trades, what do people know who are trained for emergency having to do [person(s) with a disability(ies)], doctors, and whose -- where the life of people who receive their services who are [disabled] rely on them? People often forget even the new Montreal mega hospital did not respect the minimum standards for accessibility four years ago. Nothing -- problems are forgotten. Vaccination against H1N1, which had disrupted the Para-Transpo. Same thing happened with COVID. Asking people to get a number and come back for the H1N1. Information that was accessible took weeks to become accessible. Same thing happened with COVID. To be in the territory for people live, our statistics in Quebec are not very effective in major crisis. No authority seems to know if there are more [person(s) with a disability(ies)], in a certain area, neighbourhood than others. Each works in a silo. The emergency in a major crisis. That is not the time to ask the question. Once the crisis is over, all will think about that later. In that world, technology is very important. So we can know in real time what is happening elsewhere. We still seem to be blind. And yet what I know now is that willful blindness we have got to do a different analysis. Every organization must ask the question to people with whom they work to be able to act. It makes a difference including in an emergency. So to learn from our mistakes in the '90s. I heard Jean-Marc Chaput, “What is important to see the rear-view mirror when it is more important to look ahead where you're going?” That's where we're still thinking. In life, it is looking at our mistakes, of the past, that we can learn where -- where we can learn not to repeat them in the future and find solutions. So we need [person(s) with a disability(ies)], in the debriefings and post-mortems. In conclusion, preparing this conference was a great way to go back in time, speak to me, and consider the way I've travelled. And I'm sharing a common point with [person(s) with a disability(ies)],it cannot be learned at school, at university to understand and know [disabilities] you have to be on the ground living it daily. I really do think that so long as our [person(s) with a disability(ies)], not be involved in municipal communities, the federal and provincial ones, too little will move forward in every standard for Accessibility Canada. The point is “Nothing Without Us.” Either with [person(s) with a disability(ies)], or people who are in a crisis. Why are there not [person(s) with a disability(ies)], in the municipal emergency or federal emergency measures committees? We need to find solutions. Knowing today that the cost of exclusion is greater than that of inclusion. Thank you.

Collinda JOSEPH:

Thank you very much, Paul. My name is Collinda Joseph and I am the manager of Standards Development at Accessibility Standards Canada. I'm happy to be here and take your questions and feedback for Paul on barriers in emergency. As usual, you can submit your questions by clicking on the participate button or sending us an e-mail at asc-nrc@canada.gc.ca. It is possible that we may not be able to answer all of the questions today. So thank you very much, Paul, for your presentation. And our first question today is, can you provide examples of some barriers when it comes to an emergency? Of course a number of situations could constitute an emergency. These could include natural disasters, such as an earthquake or an ice storm, as you have discussed. It could also include a public health crisis such as the current COVID-19 situation. So, Paul, can we have your thoughts on that question?

[Speaking Non-English]

Paul LUPIEN:

And the adaptive transport that has the coordinates of people and cannot communicate them for reasons of confidentiality. And yet each person could communicate in emergencies. The other big obstacle is in the protocol for all of these emergency. That there be plans that give at least the minimum standards for evacuation of the population to a gymnasium at minimum how to pair people that are present so that there could be helping to eat, go to the bathroom, to get dressed, make sure. In Quebec we call them daily living help. And the COVID situation caused return to a lot of phone services, proving that people are not connected. The digital system has created its own problems with crash or criminal elements. There have been the RTC Montréal and the STM has been attacked by scammers. Tomorrow it could be in a hospital. We must get [person(s) with a disability(ies)], to be able to use information technology. Like TELUS improved their system at a lower cost. But our system allowing the basic -- I've got to be able to work low tech with simple and secure technology. It's not something that is only for [person(s) with a disability(ies)]. But I think that what this will give society today, if there were no electricity in 2021, I can't imagine what it would be with COVID, if there were no electricity at this point. Thank you.

Collinda JOSEPH:

We have a question from one of our participants, Pierre. Are snow angels of Windsor, found in Quebec or Ontario? Thank you.

Paul LUPIEN:

It is not in Quebec. It's another province. It was careful even here in Montréal they have come up with such a service where now they would open up driveways [person(s) with a disability(ies)]. It is spreading this snow angel service. And we could hope that it could exist in emergency measures. In other situations as well. And I think that the best way is when we put citizens in touch one with the other to have contact where it might be better than to rely strictly on emergency services. But emergency services are so overwhelmed in such situations. If we can have volunteers, it could improve the services that people could receive. Thank you very much.

Collinda JOSEPH:

We have a question from one of our participants, from Steve. How can egress or exiting a building be addressed as so many facilities have accessibility for entry, but very few consider a quick safe way to get everyone out, especially those with reduced mobility?

Paul LUPIEN:

It is one of the big problems that we can run into indeed. And for example I'm thinking we could have standards that would say that, well, where there are elevators -- because if there is an emergency, there should have to be generators to make sure that the elevator can still work. When there's a power outage. Because we know very well that serious emergency unfortunately, electricity can be out as well. These are things that should be planned for. Standards also for the spaces in - in the elevators to be more insulated. There will be fire doors everywhere. To provide a service to people. Some were saying to me recently, I was not able to check this information. But it would seem that somewhere in the world, I don't recall where, it was a question of emergency stairs. There was - they managed to make a sort of pavement that - is not made to go up, but it would serve to evacuate people. So people with a disability could get out. It would be a steeper slope, but it would still allow an exit. There are things that can be thought of. I think that when they create committees and want to establish standards, even for construction or whatever else, if there are people with a disability at the table, if we were -- if the organizations were involved, whether it is a government level or even companies and so forth, when they want to do something, that they would go see the people with disabilities to say, what could we do to make things easier? And I'm sure that together we all could find some possible steps. But can that become reality? Well, that will be something to see. But I'm sure that together with time we’ll manage to come up with things. And with professionals as well. Architects and so on. If everyone makes an effort and works together to find solutions, we will find solutions. It is not one person that will find it, but really together that we can find the solutions. And to lighten the work of the architect because if the -- if that architect is not seeing the situation of living with a [person(s) with a disability], I have seen it. So -- so when I started to use a wheelchair, I came to realize that it could be tricky. And there are things that people think they're doing well and appropriately for us. Places will make access ramps for us. But with just one inch above the level of the sidewalk. These are complications. They don't think about it. They say look at this nice ramp that I made. But is it really accessible? It is not always the case. And if we don't follow the standards and the angels and everything, there will be a ramp, but it may not be a successful one. It is a need that we have to absolutely manage to be integrated into the conversations with the architects and everything. Talking also about standards and I think indeed Accessibility Standards Canada, the one thing that they're doing that is really good is people with a disability and professionals are included around the table in the finding of solutions. And together we can find those. When we will reach the level of inclusion and especially as the person before me was saying that it's by being…how can I say this? If we were to be working together from the beginning of a project to not make a project and then go in and correct things, the cost would be less. It would be more appealing to everyone. And we would have a whole lot more accessibility. That's the big problem, I think, that we can run into. That often the architects, the doctors and so forth, they're thinking for us. They think that they know everything about us. But unfortunately the situation is not the same. When you're actually in a situation of a disabled person. So I'm an old guy here, but we would have to be like that, where the committees, even the emergency measures communities, at the municipal level we see very few people with disabilities there. Whether it is provincial or so on. Often we're not even asked to be there. But I think that it is important for us to be there. To be included in society.

Collinda JOSEPH:

Thank you. Thank you very much, Paul. The pandemic, of course, it is on everyone's mind. I know our audience and I would love to hear more of your thoughts on the emergency management of the pandemic. And we had a question from Allison. And her question is, both the pandemic and move to online technology has demonstrated many types of accessibility barriers. What plans do we need to reduce accessibility barriers for future emergencies?

Paul LUPIEN:

Very good question. We can look at the level going low tech. That is to say, well, technology is great, but it is not accessible to all. We saw that with the pandemic again. There are people that for them the difficulty is reading. So computers are not going to make things easier for them. Human contact, coming back to human contact, first of all, we're not just thinking about technology. That we use the good old techniques like telephone. And technology is great. But it has its weak points. Especially in an emergency. When we're talking about electricity in an area. I'm thinking about the ice storm. If you had said we're going to do everything by technology, we had no computers. They weren't working. There was no electricity. So that's why one has to think when it comes to standards about emergency. Think about the low-tech approach. Think about other things than just technology. It is great we can have things that can be done by cell phone. But even all of that, it works by electricity. At a certain point, it is done. And how will you charge up your phone if you don't have any more electricity? There is something that can be done also when we look at emergency kits that could be developed by the Canadian government. It is something that is hard to find. If they were able to provide emergency kits to people with a disability, to be able to hold on for 72 hours, in an emergency, then that would subtract the urgency in the emergency to cover those calls because we would know that people have had some things and we can provide written explanations and so forth. And for certain people to for it to be in Braille or whatever is needed. And for that to be foreseen, ahead of an emergency. That there would be an emergency kit provided to people that the government would also invite people to have that 72-hour kit. We have heard talk of these in years ago and then we didn't hear anything more. And try to have one today, try to get one, and you will find it is almost impossible to get, the 72-hour kit. Why wouldn't the Canadian government put an emphasis on that, along with the provincial government and municipal, to ensure that people had the 72-hour kit. That is something that we went through in the course of the ice storm. People had nothing. Nothing laid aside to get through the 72 hours.

Collinda JOSEPH:

Thank you very much again, Paul. We're close to the end of our presentation this afternoon. We have a question from Christopher about balancing privacy and safety. Christopher asks, in cases where a person with a disability might have trouble communicating verbally and they do not have someone available to assist them, how do we balance the right to privacy and their need for help?

Paul LUPIEN:

Again, that is a good question. When it comes to privacy, as I was saying, at a certain point we should permit neural assessments to say to the person in the case of an emergency, do you permit us to reveal where you live, what your needs are and so forth and to be able to ensure that you will be safe? Because then there wouldn't be any confidentiality between the services. We will be able to speak one to another and share the information. At the level of emergency, ensure that in certain cases, well, the responders can use their cell phones and go by video conference and there could be interpretation services, for example. There are ways to do things. In an emergency. And I think the most important thing is that we may need technology, yes. But if we plan with the least technology possible, I think we have settled the problem. And it is often the case that these are things we have to have or see absolutely so that people can receive communication in an adequate way. But there again, these are things that back in the day in '98, no one told us that we could have ASL interpretation services. That was a problem. In 1998 we're not talking about the same technology that we have today. The services may have technology that would work. Often because it is protected by generators and so forth. And there could be interpretation services. But when we're talking about that 72-hour kit, well, these are things that we would note in case of an emergency what people must do. These are things that on the old technology when we were sending papers around and writing information. But I think that is the best way. Between you and me, who was aware that there was an actual 72-hour kit that existed? Very few of us knew that. And there is one. But it is almost not available. That's where we have to get to. Trying to think in a different way than just with technology. Thinking a little bit as we were before. Because in the past, our grandparents and so forth, they managed to make it through because they didn't have the technologies. They would go see a neighbour, they would help one another. All of that. We see that less and less nowadays. Often when we live in big cities we often don't even know our neighbour next door. The important thing is to create those connections. And maybe come back to basics to say, well, in an emergency and all that, what my neighbour is aware that I have certain needs. And may be able to help me perhaps. They will know that I need help. And for services aware that I'm there and I exist, I'm not invisible. So they would also know that there are things that they will have to plan for in my case. But when we're also talking about that, before a crisis, there would have to be communications and for them to know on a certain area we have certain number of people with disabilities. Bring them into a school gymnasium we must also plan ways to charge up their wheelchairs, make respirators work. To know what the equipment is that they would need in advance. I remember in '98, we had nothing. And at a certain point, we had an elderly person, we moved that person into a school. There were people Alzheimer there. The difficulty we had by lack of communication was people with Alzheimer they weren't home. They wanted to go back home. They would escape. As for us, for emergency services, we had to go looking and search for them. And while that was happening, there were other things that we were not doing. So it was really obvious lack of communication. And also a lack of standards that means that if there had been a generator at that location, well that would have perhaps avoided having to move people into a gymnasium. They would have continued to have the same services. So that's where the standard becomes important. Where we will be able to foresee some things and avoid moving people around unnecessarily and provide better service. Thank you very much.

Collinda JOSEPH:

That's all the time we have today for questions. Thank you so much, Mr. LUPIEN. It was a very interesting presentation. Again, thank you so much, Paul, for taking the time to be with us today. We will take a 10-minute break before our last thematic session. Please stay connected to our panel on emerging barriers to accessibility. And we will see you soon. Thank you.

Emerging Accessibility Barriers with speakers Dr. Roberta Timothy, Melissa Graham, and Meenu Sikand

Kory EARLE:

Thank you so much, everyone. Welcome back. I hope you all had a great break. My name is Kory Earle and I'm a member of the Board of Accessibility Standards Canada. The topic is our last discussion is emerging barriers to accessibility. Emerging barriers can be about new barriers or about barriers that are more recognized, more and more. This is also a very broad topic. So we invited three speakers to talk about it from three different perspectives. We will introduce each speaker before they make their presentation. Once the presentations are done, we will begin the final panel discussion on this. This is when you will be able to ask questions to the speakers. Our first panellist is a first executive to lead for equality, diversity and inclusion at Holland Bloorview Kids Rehabilitation Hospital. She is also the founder of Accessibilities for All. A non-profit organization that works to identify, address and meet the needs of marginalized communities. Please give a warm welcome to Meenu Sikand to speak. Thank you.

Meenu SIKAND:

Thank you, Kory, for the warm welcome. I would like to congratulate Accessibility Standards Council on their first anniversary. I'm so glad to see my dear friends and esteemed peers contributing to an accessible Canada with their expertise as part of the council. So bravo. Today I'm speaking with you informed by my analysis of accessibility barriers that Canadians are facing within federal organizations and other spaces due to systemic barriers and exclusionary and inequitable public policies. I'm reflecting on my lived and professional experiences of 32 years gained during my employment within corporate government and nongovernmental sectors as an accessibility and inclusion thought leader. In addition, in consultation with the members of the Holland Bloorview Kids Rehabilitation Hospital, Accessible Planning Advisory Committee, Youth Advisory Committee as well as with the members of the Accessibility for All and Race and Disability Canada. I have decided today to highlight two key priorities that need your attentions and actions to make Canada more accessible and to increase participation of Canadians with disabilities, in their chosen communities and in today's competitive labour market. The first one that I like to highlight is to address and remove historical discrimination. Some mobility rights which are in section 6, subsection 2 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees. I quote the section. “Every citizen of Canada and every person who has the status of a permanent resident of Canada has the right; A), to move to and take up residence in any province. And B) to pursue the gaining of livelihood in any province.” Take a moment and think about it. If you are a person with disabilities needing some type of disability support services, can you really say that you can move into different provinces or sometimes even with different communities within the province. Answer is no. Disabled Canadians have mobility rights categorically denied through punitive and exclusionary public policy which ties them to, A), much smaller geographical area dictated by the disability services they need. According to a recent study of the 800,000 Canadians with disabilities who are looking for work, 340,000 have a post-secondary degree or diploma. They are knowledgeable. They have qualifications. Unfortunately, many of them are still unemployed. So we know there is a problem. Problem is that these students, if needing disabilities support, must choose an educational institute within 30 to 50 kilometers of their residence. Any employment that they can apply for must exist within this small radius. Under some programs such as Ontario Direct Funding Program to hire your attendance, participants have access to opportunities in all of Ontario but not outside of an Ontario. Missing out on opportunities in other provinces and territory which are unreachable. Or in other words, 90% of the total opportunities, work opportunities or education opportunities cannot be utilized by Canadian job seekers with disabilities. So how do you make sure that they can work in a competitive labour market when their choice is only within 10%. So you have an employment strategy which I applaud you for. But make sure during implementation, look at the historical disadvantages and work with provinces and territory tech leadership. Federal government now has an Act that will allow them to show leadership and work with provinces and territories to create a portable and seamless disability services. Service that is attached to individuals and not to their place of residence. You must apply this disability-inclusive lens with built-in equity to create an accessible Canada. Because I don't have time but I can go in detail some other time that these inequities really impact racialized communities, immigrants and people who have low income the most who have no opportunities to buy those services on their own. So my first recommendation will enable job seekers with disabilities to access all Canada-wide employment opportunities instead of only 10% as it existing currently. So quickly, second recommendation I like to make is, leveraging and sustaining the positive gains made during a pandemic. Make sure they're not lost as we slowly move back to our pre-COVID base of work. As whole industries pivoted to remote working at the beginning of the pandemic. Most office based employers quickly realized that, workers can stay productive while at home through proper technology, flexible working hours, among others. Despite a massive shift in working culture, the COVID-19 crisis proved that employers can still function as a result over the past 14 months regular working life grew far more accessible. Particular significance to workers with disabilities. The response to COVID-19 required a shift in thinking. Shift in culture. Suddenly we all had to realize that accommodations and accessibility were necessary to keep companies functioning. And in turn, this accessibility levelled the playing field. So now what I'm asking that as Accessibility Standard Council, you must stay vigilant as offices slowly begin to reopen. That advances towards inclusiveness and greater profitability does not drift backward to workplaces that were less inclusive, with untold lost opportunities from employers. Because when they cannot tap into this amazing pool of talent, they also lose profit. Post-COVID-19 recovery response must apply IDEA lens for those who are not familiar with this term. Idea stands for Inclusion Diversity Equity and Accessibility. IDEA speaks to inclusion by recognizing intersectionality and diversity that exists among the disability community in an equitable manner. COVID-19 has demonstrated that it is not about targeting any one group. Everyone needs accommodation while working. Segregating solution to serve the needs of only one group which we have seen in past only creates silos and foster distrust among teams. Government at all levels and employers can now embrace new ideas and new opportunity that were always present but just out of sight. So thank you for the time. And it is Accessibility Standards Canada, not the Council. Thank you for correcting me. I appreciate it. I'm always learning something new. So thank you for your time. And I look forward to questions later on.

Kory EARLE:

Thank you so much Meenu for your presentation and insight today. Our next panellist is a registered social worker and a disability activist. She is also the founder of the Toronto Disability Pride March. An intersexual, anti-oppressive movement that encourages people to speak from their lived experiences through action. She is also completing a social work position at York University. Please help me in welcoming Melissa Graham.

Melissa GRAHAM:

Good afternoon, everyone. I'm honoured to have the opportunity to speak with you today and with such distinguished panellists which I'm honoured to call friends. For those who can't see me, I'm a white woman with blond hair and glasses and even though you can't see it I'm also a wheelchair user. We are here at a unique time for Canada to consider what it truly means to set a goal of accessibility and inclusivity nationwide. Provincial accessibility standards have blazed a trail, recognizing that employment, communication, transportation and environmental barriers are critically to achieving accessibility. At present, accessibility and inclusion are very much dependent on where disabled people live. And by province ability being able to afford that accessibility. Experience in developing and submitting provincial standards have taught us that attitude and non-societal barriers tend to remain until the environment changes around them. I've had the privilege of being involved in the disability movement for quite some time. I grew up in a small town in southern Ontario with a lot of accessibility barriers. Lacking curb cuts, a full set of staircases going up to the movie theater. But as a white disabled person who was born into this country, I had a lot of privileges that let me speak out about the barriers that not everyone has in this country. While accessibility standards and conversations like we are having today are critical to change the conversation around disability, it is important to remember that the language of disability is not used equitably across communities. Language of disability continues to be reworked by non-disabled people to justify the exclusion of people of colour, indigenous people and some newcomers to Canada. It is being used to justify institutionalization, inequitable education, police violence and denial of citizenship. If we want to create standards and legacy of true accessibility and inclusivity to be meaningful for everyone, these are not issues that we can afford to ignore. There are many people with impairments who do not recognize themselves as disabled people because the language of disability may be used against them or against people in their community. And knowing this is important when we consider whom we invite to speak about accessibility barriers and who we have not considered inviting to the team. With Accessibility Standard, we have the opportunity to create space and value for the voices reflected in these conversations on accessibility. The COVID-19 pandemic has highlighted inequities faced by disabled people across the country. Emergency plans do not account for the needs of disabled people. And I've had many conversations in various positions with disabled people who were denied access needs in the hospital, including communication needs that prevented them from speaking effectively with medical professionals. I have also had calls from people in mental health crisis who were afraid to contact the supports they needed due to police involvement with wellness checks. My intention here is not to point fingers at these professionals who are put at limits in this stressful time. But rather it is an opportunity to create the importance of leadership and the meaning of accessibility inclusive teams. And I believe that many professional Canadians want to see this change. There is a bright spot in this difficult time of many young people and other disabled people who are making changes. And I think of groups like Disability Justice Ontario and other groups that have really stepped up for their own communities in supporting food and PPE and other meaningful supports. And I think we can look to leadership like this for accessibility that is meaningful for all Canadians. My hope is in creating accessibility we will consider a priority of these non-traditional and emerging voices of accessibility. For all of us involved in this critical conversation, this is our opportunity to aim high so future generations can see themselves represented at the table. Thank you for this opportunity.

Kory EARLE:

Thank you so much Melissa for that great presentation. I have seen your work over the years. Continue to keep pushing for it. So our final panellist is assistant professor and a new director of health promotion at the University of Toronto. She is also an adjunct professor in Critical Disability Studies at York University. Her work touches on various areas, including black health, intersectionality in health work and health in racism. Please help me in welcoming Roberta Timothy.

Dr. Roberta TIMOTHY:

Thank you. I want to start by saying this land is a territory of Huron-Wendat and the Seneca’s and Mississauga’s of the Credit. Toronto is the home to many indigenous people across Turtle Island and I am grateful to have the opportunity to speak to you from this territory. I also acknowledge and stand by the 94 calls to action stemming from the ongoing trauma and health impact of the residential school systems laid out in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and support the National Inquiry Findings into the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls. I just would also like to locate myself in this dialogue being an African woman living with disabilities, brackets with (dis), in colonial Canada and within the anti-racist, anti-ablest critical disability justice movement. I'm an African woman, activist, poet, scholar, living in Turtle Island Canada, engaged in resistance centred work. I'm living with a corneal disability and I proudly come from a working-class background with transnational connections by the Caribbean and Latin America, by way of Africa. Today, I would like to discuss the importance of intersectionality, examining the importance of anti-racism and anti-ableism efforts to deal with pre-existing and emerging barriers. I would like to examine the lessons we should learn about the impact of ableism and racism using the Black community as an example in light of COVID-19 pandemic, anti-black racism and other intersectional factors. In 2017, a Canadian survey on disability said over two thirds of persons with disabilities age 15 and over have at least two or more disability types. As Canadians age, the number of disability types they experience increases creating complex layers of disability that can intersect with social and economic oppression, such as classism, ageism, racism, sexism, among others. Intersectionality comes from black feminist practice and integrates identities and systems of oppression that black, indigenous and purposefully marginalized communities experience simultaneously. To understand emerging barriers we need to understand that they exist differently dependent on your social location. In the current and historical context of Canada and transnationally, the need to create collective actions against racist and ablest violence by continuing to commit to an integrated, anti-violence, intersectional, anti-racist, anti-ablest and anti-oppressive approach is critical in deal with pre-existing and emerging barriers. Just some examples of historical and current context, the impact of African enslavement and anti-black racism and ableism in Canada is historically and currently impacting African and BIPOC and racialized communities. Example, Samuel Brown dying while black with a disability in 2018 we had to fight to get an inquiry in about his death even though it was in an institution. Not everyone who has accessibility needs is created equal in the Canadian system. Black people and people of colour makeup 83% of reported COVID-19 cases in Toronto. We know with COVID-19 cases, it increased based on your previous chronic health issues. The youngest person in Quebec Don Beni KABANGU NSAPU, 19, identified as the youngest person to die from COVID-19 in Quebec. He was black. Over one third of participants with long-term conditions or disabilities reported experiencing a temporary or permanent job loss or reduced hours during the pandemic. This increases when you're dealing with a disability also racism and other intersectional factors. Overall 61% of participants ages 15-64 with long-term conditions or disabilities reported a major or moderate impact from COVID-19 on at least one type of financial obligation or essential need. When we're looking at folks with intersectional identities, we know they not only experience issues in terms of disability but also issues based on race, class, gender, sexual orientation, etc. This is from the impacts of COVID-19; A survey on persons with disabilities from June 23rd to July 6, 2020. Among the participants 21% indicated a sensory difficulty, 38% reported a physical difficulty, 25% indicated cognitive difficulty, and 48% reported a mental health-related difficulty. Fifty-seven percent indicated they had some other health problem or condition. I wanted to look at the 48% who reported a mental health-related difficulty. In terms of black people living with disabilities, we are being disproportionately impacted by anti-black racism and ableism. We do not have adequate data or interventions. This is a disturbing pre-existing trend and emerging barrier. And I just want to take example when you look at mental health, particularly mental health as a disability, we can look at even during COVID-19 and the rise of different forms of racism and protests, we know that D’Andre CAMPBELL, Regis KORCHINSKI-PAQUET, Chantel MOORE, indigenous Elder, Ejaz CHOUDRY were all folks living with mental health and disabilities in COVID-19 who were killed by the police. So there were community members who are missing and we need to understand the connection between intersectionality, intersectional violence and ableism. In terms of emerging barriers, emerging barriers exist with accessibility is examined through a one-fits-all lenses. Paid sick days, wage and benefit increases, affordable housing are all needed. But many people living with a disability were not eligible for CERB. If we look at pre-existing reasons of why people were also struggling in terms of disabilities, we have to look at factors such as race, class, gender, sexual orientation, refugee status, etc. Accessibility does not address multiple identities including factors of race, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, class, refugee status, religious/spiritual affiliation and intersectional violence including anti-black racism, anti-indigenous racism, sexism, transphobia, classism, ageism, among others is a barrier. Understanding intersectionality is critical for anti-racist and anti-ablest efforts. The lessons we need to learn about the impact of ableism and racism on the black community and other racialized communities and the intersectional disability community in light of COVID-19 pandemic that indigenous, African and racialized people experience multiple forms of violence before, during, and if nothing is changed or acted upon systemically or ideologically, would also be the result in terms of post-COVID-19. BIPOC disability people and other people living with disabilities have experienced increased hardships during COVID-19. As black, disabled, mad and differently abled people we are impacted by intersectional violence. We exist in these events, communities, universities, meetings that we must continue to advocate and be present in and resisting against all forms of violence in Canada and transnationally. We live in our bodies, our minds, our blackness, racial ethnicities, our cultural realities for 365 days every year. And we want to have justice and safety for our community that we work and live in and accountability for our heterogeneous needs and realities. I just want to end on this quote by Ki’tay D. DAVIDSON a trans-identified black person living with a disability who passed away. “The misrepresentation of our community hurts everyone. Not just the vulnerable. Certainly, policies that fail to represent the needs of all are advocacy that ignores intersectionality facilitates exclusion, poverty and oppression to name a few. However it also helps those with institutional power by retrenching the system that we are trying to fight against. It hurts our legitimacy and demolishes our ability to fight the biggest cause in the largest issue, the injustice experienced by all people.” Thank you.

Kory EARLE:

Wow! Thank you so much, Dr. Timothy for that very important presentation today. I want to thank Dr. Timothy and also thank you Meenu and Melissa for your presentations earlier. Thank you for your leadership and insight today. So many Canadians will benefit from it. It is now time for the audience to ask our panellists some questions. Please help me in welcoming our moderator for discussion, Daname Gogue. I apologize if I got that wrong, thank you.

Daname GOGUE:

Thank you, Kory. Hello, everyone. I'm called Daname Gogue and I'm the manager of the Funding and Contribution program for Accessibility Standards Canada. I'm happy to be here and to host this question period with our wonderful panellists. Ask us a question by sending us an e-mail to asc-nac@canada.gc.ca . Please keep in mind that we may not be able to answer all of your questions today. So I'll start with our first question. Give me a second. I'll start off with the first question. This one is from Christopher. Christopher asks, how can we ensure that as technology and particularly touch screens become more of a normal tool in everyday situations that there is also technology built in for people with sight loss for alternative access to that information? Before I ask our panellists to respond, I want to provide some background on our own work. Accessibility Standards Canada is working with the CSA group to revise in the block standard related to the accessible design for sub service for interactive devices and automatic banking machines. This includes devices that we use, that use touch screen like ATMs and electronic payment terminals that we use when we pay by card at a store. This work will have improved accessibility and consistency of these devices and address the evolution of that technology. Melissa, would you like to weigh in on this first? Thank you.

Melissa GRAHAM:

I can try. To be honest. I'm not visually impaired. I personally don't like touch screens either all that much. I think what we can do is keep raising attention to concerns that we're concerned about and for looking for opportunities to get involved. I think some of my fellow panellists might be in a better position to answer this better than I am. So I will defer to them.

Daname GOGUE:

Dr. Timothy, would you like to answer this?

Dr. Roberta TIMOTHY:

Sorry, I heard my name and then I paused. I am visually impaired. And it is kind of interesting. I think there are two things. In terms of me looking at different types of folks who are living with disabilities that the access. So who will have access to technology in terms of financing? Who doesn't have access? I know my sister who has the same corneal disorder as me she didn’t have the same access. She is older and she didn't have the same access as I did in university. In terms of touch screen technology, I think it really depends on it needs to be able to be adjustable or adaptable to different people living with different needs. For me, they have that in one of my family doctor's offices. I'm actually not able to use it because actually it is too small, the actual font for me to see to actually join in. So I think there has to be maybe voice recognition, there needs to be other things that are there. And also in voice recognition we know folk who have different accents than the Canadian accent and will have difficulties in terms of the recognition. I think it is a good, you know, AI tool that is coming up, but we need to look at how it can be accessible for different folks who are living with disabilities.

Daname GOGUE:

Thank you Dr. Roberta Timothy. Melissa. Meenu, would you like to add something?

Meenu SIKAND:

Definitely I can add. In my opinion, just providing technology and everyday solution is not enough. We should also invest in ensuring that these tools are functionally accessible. For example, if there is a touch screen pad, even if the company made it accessible, the software is accessible but sometimes you will see it is tied with a cord that you cannot even reach to the counter. So those functional assessments involving people with disabilities as users is must. Where you're putting technology, who has access. Same as these new -- and you should have a procedure before you -- for accommodations before you bring this technology out. So the self-checkout is great. But if that is the only option available and the self-checkout terminal itself is not accessible, then, you know, somebody like me will be totally left out from that technology advancement and saving sometime. We are rushed like everybody else. So we should be very mindful that design, good design is good. But also what happened during implementation and what happened for the exceptional, you know, portions of it. So AI is a way to go. And we cannot stop it. We can only make that inclusion lens as part of implementation, as part of user testing. To take advantage of it. So that will be my take on it.

Daname GOGUE:

Thank you, Meenu. We have received a lot of questions about the pandemic. Allison asks, mandatory mask wearing was one of the responses to the pandemic. Although there was connection that some people would be unable to wear masks because of their disability or medical condition. Many businesses do not allow exception and some individuals treated people without masks as rule breakers. These situations discouraged people with disabilities from leaving their home and caused further physical isolation. How can we address external barriers to the full participation of people with disabilities? We recognize the importance of masks, but barriers awareness is also significant. Dr. Timothy, Melissa, Meenu, what can we do to overcome this? Thank you.

Dr. Roberta TIMOTHY:

I think that is a great question. I think for folks living with a disability it really impacted us. You know, the different rules in terms of social distancing. And I think with the mask wearing for some folk who, you know, we’re not able to wear them for a long period of time, it was a big barrier. I don't think it was adequately addressed. I think what folks had to do was ask people to go do things for them, you know. That is basically what some of the pieces. Also trauma survivors, I'm a psychotherapist also. People were dealing within trauma and were not able to wear masks for long periods of time. Even for myself who is asthmatic, it is difficult to wear masks. So I think that we need to talk about these things, which is what we're doing now. And kind of have different options. As I don't think there was, you know, studies or research done in terms of what could be done for folks who were not able to do this. I think that needs to happen sometimes. We need to look at alternatives. For myself I haven't been in the store for about 14 months because I cannot shop in a particular way based on my vision. It takes way long to get there. During COVID it was not possible. I had to get folks to support me with that. What was the other alternatives? Hopefully, we can learn post-COVID-19, and there will be a post, we can have discussions as people said earlier how do we create real accessibility and inclusivity? I don't know if there was a mask or different ways for people with issues could have gone earlier to shop, I don’t know. That wasn't explored. It was just, this can't happen. And that becomes an act of violence for folks who are not able to do that.

Meenu SIKAND:

If I can add to it. Really good response from Dr. Timothy. But if I can add. So I work for a Children's Hospital where we have children with complex care needs. And so we actually did a social media campaign to raise awareness about this issue. Because a number of our kids, their families were harassed going to, you know, even just simple in the park. Because kids with autism and some other disabilities were not able to wear masks. And I remember I was interviewed by the number of TV stations as well. So sometimes you know we need to remind people about the need for accommodations. And so we work -- we wrote to the province and we wrote to the, you know, the Coalition of Kids Health Alliance. As sick kids and pediatric hospitals, we could prepare letters that the families can take it with them. That was just a Band-Aid solution. And same as like the people who were deaf. In the beginning there were no masks that has a window in it. But problem with that -- those window masks were not level two masks. So they could not be used in a setting where the health care was delivered because there was still just for cosmetic reasons. But we also order some. So I think some of those lessons that's we are learning, we need to work with vendors but we also need to create, you know, awareness among the diversity that our community has and diverse needs we have. One solution will not fit. And we cannot let a small number of people suffer alone. So we must advocate for the differences that we bring to the table.

Melissa GRAHAM:

If I could jump in as well, I think one of the things that came up quickly during COVID is how disabled people were brought in after the fact. It was almost as if the whole plan had decided and then governments were like Whoops we forgot to bring disabled people into the conversation. I think we learned that that approach does not work. I think what we have learned very -- in a very hard way if we don't involve disabled people in conversations around emergency planning, conversations around events like pandemics before these things happen, we're going to miss things. There could have been conversations about how to -- how to implement masks in ways that respect people's differences but we didn't get the chance or the opportunity to have those. Instead what we had was a lot of confusing information about which masks are appropriate. Inadequate distribution of masks. There were a lot of different challenges that disabled people faced especially at the beginning of the pandemic that could have been avoided if people with disabilities had been at the table before something like this took place.

Daname GOGUE:

Thank you Dr. Timothy, Meenu and Melissa. We have one question from a participant and that will be our last question as we don't have more time. So this question is from Brigitte. Do you think our conversation around accessibility will change our acceptance and understanding of differences? What can we do to create a more accepting society which in turn, brings more tolerance and understanding of each other's abilities? Meenu would you like to start and then we will have Melissa followed by Dr. Timothy. Thank you.

Meenu SIKAND:

That's a good question. And thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak about it. I think the visibility of people with disability in communities is so important. And same as like, you know, you cannot talk about someone who you don't see. You cannot put a human face to it. So, again, at Holland Bloorview, we have a very successful campaign. It’s called “Dear Everybody.” We have invited kids. It’s in its fifth year -- we invited kids and youth to ask, what do you want to tell the community at large? And we have taken their messages and it has shown us, you know, very positive results. And as we speak, I'm hoping during March we will have Government of Canada as a signatory for this campaign. We have over 100 businesses. But, again, this is taking the message that we are part of the community. Disability has always existed as part and parcel of human diversity. It is just giving a positive image and accepting of our differences as valued human beings I think is the way to go. And I see that positive messages going as we see more people living with dignity, living with equity. And for those, you know, the -- the legal framework that you're producing or, you know, people who are able to go out in their community without barriers, I think all of that will feed into changing perceptions. But you also must take, you know, intentional campaigns to make sure that they address the diversity, so you're not looking as that whole Canada is just made of, you know, white people only. Reflect the demographic changes. Gender diversity, you know, racial diversity and neurodiversity. I think that is all part and parcel of our message. Thank you. Hopefully, I have answered the question.

Daname GOGUE:

Thank you.

Melissa GRAHAM:

I want to say thanks again for that wonderful question. I think it really does point to the importance of things like standards. People ask, you know, standards just changes the physical realm, it doesn't really change how people interact with you. What we found is that in fact it does. With the Ontario standards, there was -- when they first came up, there was this push, well, we have to address it to no barriers. And discrimination is a big part of what people with disabilities face. And yes that is true. But what was also found is that until the physical and systemic barriers were addressed, people had no reason to pay no attention to their attitudinal barriers. Their jobs weren’t on the line. People with disabilities didn't have the opportunity to be visible in many cases until some of those barriers were removed. And -- but I think to that it brings attention again to the question of equity. There is not – there are equity questions within disability that need to be addressed, and if what we see represented in disabilities, well people who look like me, we're not going to have an inclusive equitable system. What we're going to have is accessibility for some and for other people, disability is going to continue to be a word of violence against them. I think we have an opportunity as a country to address that.

Dr. Roberta TIMOTHY:

I guess I want to add to everyone's conversation already. I think I don't want to think about it as tolerance for diversity. I think we are all diverse. We all come from different social occasions. It is about accountability and responsibility to create spaces where we all can, you know, live in our wellness. And I think we have to start with a disability or accessibility movement which we're starting here. Whom do we bring to the table? Who doesn't come to the table? How do we in our own conversations deal with conflict, difference, you know, how do we actually understand our roles based on being in colonial Canada? How do we actually go forward and bring people up instead of kind of bringing people -- leaving people behind? So I really think it is about having more conversations that are risky for some but are about life and death for others and really stepping up and trying to remember our roots in terms of our social justice movements, in terms of accessibility and ableism. You know, we as people living with disabilities and active allies or people in solidarity have always been the ones who change the rules. When we weren't included, we create, you know, spaces where we can be visible. So critical disability. Let's be critical about what we're doing and move forward. Thank you.

Daname GOGUE:

Thank you. That is all of the time that we have for our questions today. I want to thank our panellists once again for being here today with us. Thank you for sharing your expertise with us and for answering questions from the audience. Before closing this event, I would like to invite Bill Adair and Laurie RINGAERT from the Board of Directors to say a few words. Thank you.

Bill ADAIR:

Thank you, Daname. I appreciate all of the work that has gone into this event and I wanted to let you know I'm a member of the Board of Directors of Accessibility Standards Canada. And I'm here with my friend Laurie.

Laurie RINGAERT:

Hello, everyone. I'm Laurie RINGAERT and I'm also a member of Accessibility Standards Canada's Board of Directors. And glad to be here.

Bill ADAIR:

Thank you for attending our first annual public meeting. We know you're out there. Perhaps another year we can be there in person. On behalf of the board and staff, we all hope that you found this meeting of interest and of value. Our goal was to hold an engaging and accessible event. And we would love to hear from you on how we did. We will send you an invitation to complete a short survey in the next week. We want to hear your good ideas on how we can improve our planning for the annual public meeting next year. Thank you so much for attending. Laurie, over to you.

Laurie RINGAERT:

Thanks, Bill. Well, I want to talk a bit about how to reach us. This event happens only once a year. You can engage with us many ways throughout the year.

First slide. Subscribe to our newsletter on our website which is accessibile.canada.ca. You can also follow us on social media to stay up to date. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn by searching for Accessibility Standards Canada. You will get all of the latest news on our work including invitations to apply to our technical committees and research grants and contributions program.

Next slide, please. You can also call or e-mail us at any time. Our number is to get your pens and paper ready or type it in 1(833) 854-7628. And our e-mail address is asc-nac@canada.gc.ca. Our organization will make redability report every effort to get back to you within two working days. So thanks everyone for joining today. And I will let Penny close the event with a few remarks.

Penny HARTIN:

Thank you, Bill and Laurie. Before I send you off this afternoon, I would like you to join me in welcoming older Roseann MARTIN who will close the event with a prayer.

Roseann MARTIN:

Hello. Can you hear me?

Bill ADAIR:

We can hear you.

Roseann MARTIN:

Okay. I want to take this time to send our ancestors back. I know I haven't tuned in for most of the programming this afternoon because I was called on another mission. But I would like to close your meeting off with a prayer. Sending our ancestors back.

[Speaking Mi’gmaq]

Start my video. Okay. Camera is on. All right. I'll start one more time.

[Speaking Mi’gmaq]

I thank you. Such an honour. That's it.

Penny HARTIN:

Thank you so much Roseann MARTIN. We appreciate you taking the time to be with us today. And our thoughts are with you and your community at this time.

Roseann MARTIN:

Thank you. Thank you.

Penny HARTIN:

I want to thank our guest speakers, Maayan ZIV, Paul LUPIEN, Meenu Sikand, Melissa Graham, and Dr. Roberta Timothy for sharing your wisdom and expertize with us today. I wish to thank our team, our moderators and everyone who worked in the background. This event would not have been possible without you. Finally, thank you to you all who participated in this event. Identifying and removing barriers to accessibility is an ongoing process. We look forward to continuing to work with you to help pave the way to a barrier-free Canada. Have a great afternoon and evening, everyone. Thank you.